Season 1 Episode 3
Summary
This week Jess explains why she is so careful about what kind of parenting content she consumes. We talk through how deal with contradictory parenting advice, trust your mothering instincts and let go of suggestions that don't match your parenting style (such as, wearing avocado on your nipples to coax your baby to nurse). A listener asks how to transition a toddler into daycare when he's upset and we discuss how to helping your child overcome challenges instead of rescuing them builds self-esteem and confidence.
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Find Jess at Jessica Hover on Youtube and @jess_hover on Instagram
Find Layne @enquiryco on Instagram
As we mentioned in the episode, we recently did deep dive into tips for transitioning your child to daycare or preschool - you can watch it HERE!
Transcript
Jessica:
I was with a little girl the other day- she's nine and she was telling me that some boys were being bullies to her at school and this is like a tender hearted little sweetie pie. I was with her when she was little baby. I've known her all these years. And she told me she was like, "Auntie Jess, these boys, they were being bullies to me at school. And they were like, 'Hey, I don't like you.'” And I was like, "What did you say?" And she said, "I said, Great, I don't like you either." The moment taught me so much. That was really beautiful. And she's like, "Yeah, they're not my friends." And she's since been removed from that group of kids and she's not in that environment anymore. But I think that's a good life lesson is that sometimes they're not going to like us. And the truth might be we don't really like them either. And that's fine. She told the story with a smile. It’s a very adult lesson- I needed it.
[Theme Music]
Hi, I'm Jessica Hover.
Layne:
I'm Layne Deyling Cherland and this is Very Good Enough a podcast from Very Good Mother's Club. Episode three.
Jessica:
Episode three.
Layne:
Episode three. Okay, so in episode one. We teased a couple of things at the end, like proper podcasters. One of them was why don't I have babies which we did talk about. The second one we did not talk about. That thing was--you were saying at the end of episode one that you don't actually really consume this kind of content.
Jessica:
No, I really don't. I really don't consume any kind of content that is parenting related unless I'm desperate for some sort of help. The reason? Oh, I'd love to tell you. The reason is I am pretty insecure. And I have this thing where sometimes I think that I need to be the best at what I'm doing. And I put a lot of weird pressure on myself. So I find that if I consume a lot of parenting content, and I don't know the people and I don't feel like there's a real reason I'm just like hunting for somebody to tell me something about parenting. Then I can add this pressure of like, oh, this stranger that I don't even know if I have the same parenting style of them is telling me I need to do something and then I carry it in this weirdly perfectionistic way. I'm also a content creator, making content for parents. So not only not only do I carry this in a way of like, as a mom, I'm gonna take on whatever this person says. And I'm gonna try and do it the best way possible and that feels like pressure. I also do it as a content creator, where if I'm watching or listening, my mind starts to go to places like oh my gosh, there's so much better than me. Why would I ever make content for parents when this exists? I don't need to be here. They're so amazing. I'm not so I'm, I'm insecure and I'm perfectionist. And so I am not trying to be in the world of parenting content. Unless I really trust that the thing I'm listening to is worth my time and energy and it's almost like it's safe for me. It's weird. So if you came to me and you're like, Jess, I listened to this person. They said some amazing stuff. I think it's gonna help you a lot as you navigate school without Eloise or something. I would listen and I would be able to turn down everything else. But if it's just me, and I have some time to turn on a podcast, I am never motivated to turn on parenting content. I'm much more motivated to turn on content about business actually growing a business how to have a business or like personal growth. I love listening to stuff about relationships. And I think it's because when I listened to that, I don't carry that same thing of like, I have to get this right even with my business. I think that with business, I feel so much like I have no idea what I'm doing and and there doesn't feel- doesn't feel like the same pressure. Because with my kids, I have this deep love for them that I really don't want to get it wrong and somehow that connects in a weird way inside of me. Whereas with business I listen I'm like wow, okay guy Roz. I listen to a lot of Guy Roz on business stuff. Like that's really interesting. I'm going to take that back and see how I can use it. And somehow it doesn't strike insecurity because I am a self proclaimed beginner. I have no idea. Does that make sense? Whereas with parenting I'm somehow- I tell people I'm not an expert. But now I've somehow been positioned in this parenting world as I don't know if experts the right word. It feels a bit strong for me, but definitely a voice that carries some weight and some influence. And so yeah, it hits different.
Does that make sense?
Layne:
It it makes sense in the sense that I think one of the super interesting things about people is like how we all have obviously, all this, like underlying programming inside from early childhood and life and our experiences and everything we've gathered, but it seems to contain loopholes. You know, like, for me, I have, like, pathologically opposed to doing anything performative. Like sports or karaoke, or singing or whatever, like, whatever the thing is, that's performative, except for public speaking, which is my favorite. And so I think that's so interesting how there are these like weird loopholes. And your brain is so sophisticated that it just like makes up a reason. Yeah, why like actually, in this space, you don't have to be desperately terrified about whether or not you're good enough. It makes sense that we all have these weird, kind of, like trapdoors,
Jessica:
Yes, but is there some part that's connected to like, I don't like to do karaoke, but I also don't prefer my own singing voice. I don't prefer the sound of it. And I think I've been told it's bad when I was like a kid or something. We're gonna go really deep. Yeah, yeah. So I wonder if somehow that connects to like, I don't want to do this thing because I'm not even good at it. And it's not fun for me. Versus like public speaking. You're an excellent public speaker. Does that carry into it?
Layne:
I don't know. I think I mean, I think that has a little bit to do with like, the ability to improvise and be not in like a I can do it funny and bro. But in terms of like, Oh, if this isn't working, just say more words that change. Like if you don't like those other kinds of things. You either do them or you don't right, like did it correctly or it was bad way? Whereas here if I see something confusing, I can see confusion on someone's face and rework what's happened like back it out and make it shaped differently and totally use the different words
Jessica:
That makes sense. So we probably won't go to karaoke together.
Layne:
Okay, super, super nightmare. I do want to circle back to that idea of I'm wondering about the part where like, you need the content to feel safe for you. It needs to be sort of pre vetted or like connected to someone or something else that gives it the stamp of like this is real. Is that because it feels penetrative and permeable to you like because it all like really gets in there and affects you. You're like, Oh,I really need to make sure that nothing, nothing even crosses the frame of my eyes, less eye view.
Jessica:
My personality is pretty hard on myself. And so yeah, there's some element of safety to it. Where if a close friend or if somebody in our very good mother's club community recommends something, and I trust them, and they're like, “You should listen to this because this would be really valuable.” Then the way I listen, I listen like edge of my seat, teach me something, I will apply it and I do that to my detriment. There's some times where I'm trying to do something in my life, and Shaun is watching me, and I've been married for 13 years. We've known each other for a long time. And he's like, “Jess, who told you that you have to do it like that? Have you considered that that's not working at all, and that doesn't line up with you or us at all?” And then I have to backtrack and be like, Oh, I thought that but you know, if somebody's great and they say this is the great wave and in order for me to do the great thing I need to do that. And that's how I am it's hard for me to realize it's like sort of vulnerable but like it's hard for me to decipher sometimes for myself, can I just listen to a thing unless it's total nonsense, unless, I mean, I joked with you the other day, about someone telling me that I needed to put avocado on my nipples for almost a month straight to try and convince Jules to breastfeed when she was all done breastfeeding, and I could laugh and I'd be like, I'm sorry. I believe that that works for some people, but there's no way in my life ever will I be walking around topless for a month in my house with avocado nipples, that's just not gonna happen. So there's those but then there's some stuff that if I'm listening to something and they are conveying an idea, like this is the best way to raise your kid and especially if there's any sort of fear strategy there of like, if you don't do it this way, then these are all the things that can happen. My mind already functions like that of like, oh, the worst could happen. Don't do that, you know. So it's that so it's me wanting to if I'm gonna listen to something parenting related, I want to know that somebody else listened first. And there's reason that this is going to carry weight or like they know the people who recorded it and they're actually awesome or they're really great parents or their kids are so cool or I don't know something about it to where maybe cool is the wrong word that you wouldn't understand what I mean by that. But if the family dynamic is something that I personally would look at and go “whoa, I could see myself having that” as opposed to their kids. Their kids dress so cool. Oh, my God. Yeah, like that's not what I mean by cool but you know what I’m saying. If I were to look at that view, I'd love to emulate the way they do relationships or the way their house flows or something. And there's so much parenting content out there. That's why I've told this to you and I've told this to you guys actually watching or listening. I'm so grateful that people would take time to follow along with the things I have to say about how to take care of a baby or how to take care of your toddler or how we do family life, because there's so many options and there's so much noise in the world of content for growing families. That the fact that they would take their time to focus their energy here and listen to us or watch a video we make or join one of the Zoom calls we're doing in our community. That to me is such an honor and a privilege and we said it actually in a previous podcast in a previous one like as if we just have so one of the one or two we've already recorded. It's in the archive. You said that we don't want to waste anyone's time. And that's really really important to me as well. Or did you not say that I might have cut it? Oh, if you cut it, yeah, affect the good thing. I'm saying it now. It's a value of ours. We don't want to waste your time. I'm looking at the camera now. We don't. And there's so much noise and so many places. You could be finding content, that we want to be a safe place and I personally want to be a safe place because I don't go to parenting content unless it's safe and worth listening to as far as I'm concerned.
Layne:
Yeah, yeah, there's a sea of information out there. And actually, to maybe take this conversation a very different direction than we discussed. But to one of the things that we have discussed many times that actually we talked about the very first time that we met, was how there's so much out there in these two spaces, whether it's parenting or education, there's just like the volume of what's out there for parents and for kids and about kids. And so much of it is just like really, really not useful. And then even as much as that is super bad. Really, really not only not a good use of your time, but also just like don't put this in front of your eyes and don't be in this state. And it has felt challenging, as I guess I should just circle back to myself, but like going into teaching. I stumbled in there by accident and then tried to look around at what existed and I just hated it. Like curriculum and worksheets and instructions about how to be with kids and never tell children no is a thing that people say all the time. Never. You should never say no to them, or like or other just like hard and fast really like this is a black and white roll and yeah. And without like real, a real principle underneath of like, this is what children are like and this is what moves them- it either treated them like they are uncreative little cogs that you just like put paper in front of right or like they're these delicate little glass beings and you could never tell them the truth or like can't be a real person around them. It just like it felt so itchy. I was having this weird experience as like a very young teacher of being like, I feel so excited about these people. I feel like this is super magic. Oh, something here is like so alive and new. And I did not know that two or three year olds would be like this, but then also like everything in the world that's made for them. I just hate it. That's kind of where the making started for me. Like okay, then I guess you 12 of you tiny tinies and we are going to have to like make a pack. Because I cannot give this content to you. It's dreadful. I also am not going to look at it. People make things for children that children will never see. And then they put like weird clipart on it so that it's like cute. But only the adults will ever see it. So I'm looking at this ugly clipart on it because it's sort of like about children. And it's just like so what it is is very unconscious is like very unconscious of the adult experience and then unconscious of the child experience to like not a thought through thing. So finding a new way in the world. And then when I do find someone who's like making something that is useful and connected and like really, for educators or for parents or like really considers the child it's like water in the desert. I get so excited. But that's been one of the things about being in this world that has felt so strange has been like a lot of the time I feel like a hate it here. And and yet it's like my absolute passion and your paradox to be in. And I remember kind of like, sort of dancing around that topic with you being I accidentally found my way into this space. I kind of hate everything that's here, but actually there's like the key measure here. And it has to be better.
Jessica:
Yeah, I totally relate. And actually there was a mom in our very good mother's club community this week that was on one of those zoom calls with us. And she has a new baby. And she was expressing very vulnerably like when I'm on social media and I'm looking up stuff about baby sleep,I can't help but feel like people are telling me I'm doing it wrong. Like your baby's not sleeping well have you tried this? Have you tried that? Well, maybe it's this maybe it's that and she was expressing like, have you guys experienced that? All of the content out there can actually be a voice that makes you feel like you're failing at a job that you desperately want to be good at and you're sleep deprived in her situation that maybe wasn't sleeping, and I related so much to the way she was talking because that's a really good picture of what I feel when I go to parenting content a lot of times I can leave knowing that their heart was good, but the takeaway is I'm not doing it right. And there's not safety there. And so I told the girl to mute every account only go to the ones or go to your friends, but go to the ones that make you feel safe. And that you know if someone's going to offer some sort of guidance about baby's sleep, that it's coming from a place of I'm with you. You're not doing this wrong. This is hard because it's hard. It's not hard because you're bad at it. I think we say all the time. And yeah, it's just it's a feeling that I think is very common, but it's kind of surprising. It's a jolt to the system. When you enter this world of caring for kids, that the yucky stuff is a bit of a jolt. Can I ask you a question? Because you talking about education and your work in in preschool? That actually lines up with a question that we received in our community. Can I ask it, so Caprix, she's a mom in Australia. We love you Caprix- she has a son named Ziggy, and it's his very first time going to daycare preschool. And I'm calling it the same thing, but it's been really challenging. It's super important that he's going they knew that it would be the right thing for him. She had a hard time postpartum and it's now been, you know, it's been a long time since he's not a baby anymore. He's a toddler. And she just feels really bad. He cries when she drops him off. She cries basically, she reached out to us asking to have any guidance for this. So the question even comes up in her is like, is this a wrong time? Am I doing it wrong? Should I stop doing this and just keep him home with me even though she and her husband were both on the same page that this was the right time. What's it like for you as the receiver of the child you're the educator. Do you have any advice for Caprix or even just some insight into how you guys view it when a child comes and the little ones crying? And maybe the mom is crying? I'm sure you've seen that before? Can you speak to Caprix on that?
Layne:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely can. I'm so sorry. That feeling Caprix is tough. It's really tough. And that that's probably really kind of the underlying theme of about this is a hard thing. And again, it is hard because it's hard, but the heart is super powerful. And we're gonna we're gonna do a YouTube video we're gonna film right after we're done with this, where we're gonna get real practical about and...
Jessica:
That will actually already be out by the time this podcast is out. So you guys can go watch that after this all about the daycare preschool transition.
Layne:
So what I'll expand on here in the podcast is maybe kind of like a deeper feeling or a deeper idea about what's happening there. Which is that when your child is two and three, they are- it's not a surprise to anyone that they're doing things for the very first time but they're they're doing this is the very first hard thing that Ziggy has ever done.
Jessica:
And he's not quite two yet.
Layne:
Yeah, that's small. So this is like the first hard thing that like he's really had to like, do and endure. He's been born and that's your very first life challenge, which is gnarly. But he's not kept to that memory. This is like the first thing that he's going to need to like face in his life and do in like an ongoing way. That is really, really challenging for him. And it is okay that it's hard. He is going to have to face really hard things in his whole entire life and grow and practice being a person who is able to encounter something difficult. stand it, decide how he wants to be in it, learn to soothe himself through it, and trust other people to help him through things that are hard. Face the same hard thing again, recognize that he's still here. The hard thing happened and he felt like he was gonna die and then he didn't and and now he's here. Like that pattern of life is -we think we think that that's very reasonable in adult life, right? But you have to do that for the very first time at some point in your life and this is his first hard thing. So real respect to him for what he's going through. Because he's, though he's tiny, he's like a real life person doing a real life thing. And that's very powerful. And I just want to like offer a lot of love and respects to Caprix and her husband too as they guide him through his very first hard thing in life.
Jessica:
So this wouldn't be the moment to be like, nevermind,
we're gonna,
Layne:
That's gonna depend. That will depend on I don't know what this care center is like, or what the adults are like, are they really safe and really loving and good.
Jessica:
So that brings her a lot of peace. But that's a personal decision for them if they want to keep doing this.
Layne:
Yes. And I would say that that's something to like, ask your like, gut level insight instincts, knowing which you may have to listen a little harder for when there's like the sound of your sweet sweet child and feeling really upset. That's a tough one because of course that feels really bad. That's like a logically valid feeling sound totally but if the center is a place you feel really good about if the adults who are there feel like good to you like really good you know, like you've or there's at least like the the adult who is in charge of caring for your child feels like they're whatever comes out of them feels like resonance inside of you. And you can like trust and lean on that. Absent that, there will be different events. Really different advice. Yeah. But if you can feel safe in that and grounded in that inside yourself. That is going to be the first thing that's important because Ziggy's going to be looking to you to find out like is this okay? This thing feels crazy to me. I am clearly demonstrating that I think this is not okay. And feeling with his feelings. Does she really think it's okay. And you can feel that on your own insides even during his protest. He is also ingesting that like real deep inside feeling from you of like okay, she's okay big picture she is okay. So while there may be protests because it's way nicer to stay home and be cozy and have your mom and have the smell of her all around you and the snacks and all your things. That isn't, that's not like necessarily your best good or the family's life good. But he doesn't like it, that's okay. To do a thing that he really really doesn't like and a lot of respect and a lot of like holding space for like you really, really are not enjoying this part of your day. I did hear from your teacher that after you snuggled and got a little snack, you actually found something you really liked at school, and then it sounded like you ended up having a pretty good day, and I checked with the school and I know that it's safe I know that it's really good. And I'm always going to come back and get you so we are going to school. Whether that's the thing that you say out loud you can use that exact script or that's just what the story that you know is in your head of like, I know that he goes to school and that it does get better. You know like these things to soothe and comfort yourself and then also to kind of like build a story around that for him. One of the things that I think we actually do, out of a place that feels really loving and warm and like caring and nurturing, is we as adults often steal away from children their opportunity to process manageable tragedy. And we do it over and over and over again even in like the stories that we tell them and their media and their books like all of those things are lacking now. Some of the darkness and the under like the underbelly elements and the really intense things about human life because we're in kind of a phase of society where we're like, really, like really keeping things like fluffy and gentle and like soft landing for children. And it's my preference that we're like leaning heavily into this nurture side for them. There is a way in which when we when we don't really support them through but also leave them in the hard thing. We're kind of snatching away these opportunities for them to do a thing that we know is within their capacity that we know is safe and good and just really hard and really painful.
Jessica:
From what I read there's even science behind if you do that if you take away very normal, sad moments, very normal, hard moments. Then later in life when they encounter sad hard moments, as we all do, there's a lack of resilience. There's a quicker tipping into depression and things that are really bad. And so for me that's helpful as a parent to be like, Oh, I think I'm protecting them. But actually, if it's not protection, because later it’s going to cause an issue. I would much prefer we do the hard thing together and we both feel the sadness of this, but I'm telling myself like this is ultimately good for you and I and in my experience with my kids, when I've had to go through these hard drop off transitional preschool daycare moments and I've had plenty where I leave crying because my little ones crying. I have seen more good than bad like the way the confidence is built into my little one or like their social skills develop more. I mean there's bad in that like they collect germs and now their sick more just these annoying things. But like I was living in Spain, that was the first time Eloise went to like a daycare provider. And it was this lovely Spanish woman and she hugged me and she talked me through like basically she was caring for Eloise, but she was very much caring for me too. And it gave me a window of time to connect with people and find my way again as a person without a child because I've now lived so long where my main focus was her and maybe whatever work I was doing, but she was always right there. So I don't know I think for you Caprix, I know you. But you're such a good mom. And I just want to remind you like you are so good. And in this time you're probably wondering I mean, I know you're wondering because I've heard from you directly. You're wondering if this is bad or you should feel guilty about it or something and I just want you to hang in there and sit with the pain of it like you're describing like it is painful for both of you. But I think more good is going to come then than harm and you love the place that he's going and the people he's being with. So I think all of that shows that this is just a hard moment and ultimately is going to get easier. Though in my experience you probably have seen this too there are still sometimes hard days where the little one even as comfortable as they are in their little place their school or their daycare. There still are tearing mornings or something just because they want to be with us.
Layne:
Yes, it's beautiful that you're who who wants to be with and that your home is the place where he wants to be and that he knows this is my safe little egg and is eager to get back there. And I have a ton of like really, really practical like nuts and bolts. things to say about this, which now in the future when you're hearing this exists on the internet for you.
Jessica:
Exactly. And I'm specifically asked her not to share it here so that you can go watch the YouTube video and we'll make that concise. And you'll get all of this. Yeah, cool. Okay, I think that's it. That's it. I just recorded another episode another episode.
Layne:
Yay. So fun.
Jessica:
We're doing this. Thanks for doing it. Thanks for listening, guys. Thanks for being here. If you want to submit a question, please do there's going to be a link to do that in the show notes. And we will see you very soon in a weekish.
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